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By kirillcool
via javalobby.org
Published: Jan 11 2008 / 20:01

. Zed has accomplished what social pressure could not. We tried to drive them out with torches, but they just wouldn't leave. Sun please drop JRuby support. It is a waste of time. Take that money and spend it on Groovy which has a compatible syntax to Java. Do the language evolution there and quit abusing Java syntax. Give us some decent Groovy IDE tools. Quit messing with Java so frequently.
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User 240010 avatar

Nikita Ivanov replied ago:

-3 votes Vote down Vote up Reply

I blogged recently about silent majority (I, of course, got a usual dump of "you are an idiot" comments from Ruby adolescents). It is actually startling as to what degree Ruby and RoR crowd has gotten under the skin of so many people that some of them starting to voice up their feelings.

I happened to agree w/author. Take the best ideas and move on. How many times we need to repeat that comparing Ruby to Java is like comparing scooter to Mercedes. Yes, if you just want to play - scooter is cheaper and simpler...

Best,
Nikita Ivanov.

User 205958 avatar

planetmcd replied ago:

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I read your post and in it you indicated you're not a web application developer and don't know many. Fair enough, IT is a big world. But Rails and Ruby through Rails are primarily operative within that sphere at the moment. When Rails came on the scene, it offered some strong advantages over both Java web application development and PHP. As this post suggests, Java web application should, can, and to some extent is appropriating ideas from Rails and the Python frameworks. These revolutions, however small, are helping Java evolve, and without them, people might still be humping along doing web apps in Struts.

On the other hand, some people are finding that these other methods of development suit their needs better and even though Java is appropriating concepts from other worlds, some prefer the other worlds. In the end, who cares as long as clients get the web applications they need and are happy.

Perhaps in other sphere's your scooter/mercedes analogy is apt, but within the web aplication arena, an area in which you profess ignorance, it is innacurate. Maybe thats why certain people like yourself and fanboy Rails developers talk past each other. You're not a contributor to their IT space, and they don't have a grasp there is a space beyond web application development and you don't seem to grasp that Ruby/Rails isn't in whatever area you're a part of, yet still feel threatened and compelled to knock it without a strong grasp of what advantages it offered/s over Java alternatives.

In the web app sphere, Ruby/Rails is currently a legitimate option. Maybe it will go the way of Perl after a number of years, but maybe its here to stay. But even if it fades, it will only serve to make mainstream approaches stronger.

User 215798 avatar

anamanaman replied ago:

-1 votes Vote down Vote up Reply

Uh huh. Very intelligent

User 168451 avatar

aalmiray replied ago:

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I guess your comment proves otherwise. Whatever the case the facts still stands: JRoller has less Ruby related posts during the past weeks, and it may be indirectly or directly related to Zed's rant, I hope it is the later. After all, there is a reason why RoR Rubyists (mind that not every rubyists is a RoR rubyist) are treated like fanboys and nothing more, and the trend continues.

User 208909 avatar

petercooper replied ago:

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You might note the majority of Zed's complaints were about Rails and prominent Rails developers, not Ruby and its own prominent developers, but unfortunately a lot of people can't seem to comprehend two distinct ideas at once. Thankfully the Ruby community most likely doesn't want such clods for members anyway.

User 102928 avatar

dglasser replied ago:

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I'll say it again. Ruby is not nearly as popular or widely used as the hype suggests. The actual number of Ruby jobs in the US IT industry is negligible. It is a niche language with which a decent web framework has been built, and around this framework a cult has evolved, with its high priests (DHH) and its heretics (Zed Shaw) and its glassy-eyed followers who actually think the world at large gives a shit that you can write "20.minutes.ago" in Ruby, and who will probably swoop in here and vote down this comment.

User 247420 avatar

omouse replied ago:

2 votes Vote down Vote up Reply

Niche language my ass. Whatever you can code in Java you can code with Ruby, Python, Perl, Haskell, Scheme, Common Lisp or Smalltalk/Squeak.

If you make a statement such as "It is a niche language" you have to provide evidence. Examples: Forth is a niche language because it's easy to write a Forth for really constrained hardware; Perl is a niche language because it aims to make text-processing very very simple and to make regexp a 2nd language for you. So what's Ruby's niche? and what's Java's niche?

User 209965 avatar

estherschindler replied ago:

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"Niche language" refers to market share, i.e. "what percentage of developers spend any of their time writing in this language?" It's not a statement of which is "best" or "most loved" or "most suitable;" it's an issue of "how much work is there if I want to specialize in it?"

And the earlier reply is accurate.

Ruby generates noise. Its supporters are plenty loud. They are also active and enthusiastic, which can be a good thing. For example, it's good for book sales. They'll buy Ruby and RoR books. And I know that if I publish an article about Ruby on CIO.com -- and I have done so, go ahead and search -- I'll have lots of site traffic.

However: statistically, Ruby is _not_ used as often as you might imagine it is. I've looked at the data from Evans Data (which specializes in software dev market research) on programming language usage in North America (as well as other regions, such as Asia Pacific). Ruby's use is about the same as Python. Ruby users are just louder. C/C++ may not be "sexy" anymore, but a very high percentage of developers -- sorry, I'm not permitted to say the number without explicit permission -- use C/C++ at least part of the time. Ditto for Java.

User 247420 avatar

omouse replied ago:

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>it's an issue of "how much work is there if I want to specialize in it?"

Why should that be an issue at all? If you *really* want to use a programming language, work for someone else using something crappier but that pays well and then start your own company doing what you love! Oh sorry, I forget that not everyone is in love with programming and treats it as just a job.

I'm currently learning Common Lisp and Scheme and I understand there aren't many jobs that use that but I understand that whatever I learn when using those languages *can* be applied to others.

There's a great quote by Alan Perlis: "A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming, is not worth knowing." If you don't love programming enough to learn more than one programming language (with a different syntax than the one you currently use), you should *not* be programming at all.

User 264464 avatar

obiefernandez.myopenid.com replied ago:

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It has nothing to do with Zed's rant. We're all just too busy with lucrative work.

User 60609 avatar

sigzero replied ago:

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Nice try! : )

User 102928 avatar

dglasser replied ago:

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@omouse:

It should be obvious from the context that "niche language" refers to market share, not capability. And for evidence, look at the number of advertised jobs that are for full-time Ruby or RoR development. It's so tiny it's laughable.

(I thought I clicked the "Reply" link on your message, but I guess I didn't.)

User 186344 avatar

kunnar replied ago:

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It does not matter much that there is less Ruby jobs than for example Java jobs. Compared to junk food market, number of Java jobs are also so tiny it's laughable. What matters is how much there is well paid and enjoyable jobs. Maintaining legacy Java code is not enjoyable, and this is what most of these Java jobs are.

User 209965 avatar

estherschindler replied ago:

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Well if you want to talk about job availability... Java is certainly more lucrative. Indeed.com tracks salaries indirectly (they show job openings across multiple sites; the only jobs that advertise salary are likely to be the cheaper ones) but the comparison is still useful:

http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=java&l1=&q2=ruby&l2=&q3=python&l3=&tm=1

Java developer: $80k. Ruby developer: $68k.

User 205958 avatar

planetmcd replied ago:

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This is a silly post.

Learn both, use the one you like.

All this article demonstrates is that java programmers can sink to the level of some of the immature members of the Ruby/Rails community.

On the job comparison, lets be honest and compare web application design jobs. This is really where ruby's market is right now:
http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=django&l1=&q2=rails&l2=&q3=spring+mvc&l3=&q4=php&l4=&tm=1

In this "niche" rails does OK compared to java, python, and php competitors. Substitute whatever java web framework you want, Spring MVC was the first one I came across that returned results and that is probably not quite an apples to apples comparison.

User 102928 avatar

dglasser replied ago:

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@planetmcd:

What does the average salary of Ruby jobs matter if there are barely any Ruby jobs to be had? If you search dice.com right now for "ruby" and nothing else, so you'll cast the widest possible net, you'll get 682 hits. And after about the second page of listings, they no longer mention Ruby in the title, instead the titles are things like "Web Developer" or "Sr. Java Developer" (heh). If you restrict the search to only listings with Ruby in the title, which gives you a better measure of jobs that are primarily Ruby development jobs, you'll get a mere 96 listings! The same searches for Java produce15K+ and 4K+ hits.

Ruby is not widely used.

Ruby is a niche language.

Ruby gets a lot of publicity on the net because a lot of Ruby developers see it as a cause, rather than a friggin' programming language. They see it as a source of personal fulfillment, and happiness, and a lot of other stuff, and they're very sensitive about people speaking about it in less than reverent tones. And I've seen a backlash developing against this endless shrill hype, and you can consider this post, and others on this topic, my own small contribution to that backlash.


User 205958 avatar

planetmcd replied ago:

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@dglasser

First off, if you want to be specific about niches, the niche where Ruby primarily competes is in the Web Application development market. As I pointed out, within that niche, it competes on salary fine and there seem to be plenty of jobs on that indeed site. On the graph page it says that it cites > 250 sources and I went 4 pages deep seeing Rails jobs. I suppose if you want a better picture, your search would need to include both ruby and rails since many of the ads mention Rails only.

Second off, why do you care? If its not a viable economy, it will die off. If it is, there is nothing you can do about. If its that small, its not taking food off your plate.

Third, if you don't like the tone of Ruby/Rails articles, don't read them. It's really very simple.

Fourth, some people do like Ruby, good for them. They can't make you use it and they can't make you read about it. Let 'em be happy.

Fifth, you're "my language is bigger than yours" argument is juvenile and of the same tone that you complain about from the Rails/Community.

Dzone could do without such silliness from either side but I believe that most of the technology disparaging comments on this thread are from anti ruby commenter's, not the other way around.
,

User 102928 avatar

dglasser replied ago:

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On that site you mention, when I did a search for jobs with "Ruby" in the title, the category with the most hits was restaurant manager, so that data is pretty useless. When I did a search on dice.com, that would have included jobs in Web Application development. The conclusion:

Ruby is a niche language.

Ruby is not as widely used as they ruby cultists would have you believe.

Oh, and thanks for your "advice", but I read what I want, and I say what I want. I know it bugs the hell out of you, but you'll just have to live with it.

User 205958 avatar

planetmcd replied ago:

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I have nothing against Java. I developed Java/Oracle applications for 5 years and liked it, but Ruby and Rails is great within its niche.

I suppose if you want to do inaccurate comparisons and don't really care about obvious faults in your methodology, feel free. There are plenty of Rails jobs out there. If there were enough developers or the technology wasn't in demand, there wouldn't be 360 Rails jobs or on dice.com. Within its nice it is in demand. Does quantity of ruby jobs = java jobs, no, not close and no one disputes that. But there is market for Ruby jobs, specifically with Rails. It impossible to argue a point like "Ruby is not as widely used as they ruby cultists would have you believe." There are no facts in that statement to argue about. What number do the cultists say there are? Who are the cultists? What's alot of jobs? What I can say is there is a niche of IT world that Ruby competes in and in it there are more jobs than people to fill them and those jobs pay as well or better on average than most other web application development jobs.

Perhaps its inadvisable to give trolls advice, but one can hope you'd spend more time working to make the Java world or you're preferred community better through endeavor, rather than spend time denigrating other communities, particularly ones that you find of no consequence.

And while there are certainly shrill members of the Rails community that attack Java, you're shrillness does the Java community no favors. If Ruby is of no consequence, there shouldn't be much reason to notice it at all. You would think the focus would be on the .net community which does directly compete with Java across many niches and is well funded and widely adopted. I guess you're the type that would rather attack the loud mouth little guy than actually fight someone on equal standing?

User 102928 avatar

dglasser replied ago:

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Dude, what could possibly make you think I care about "making the Java community better through endeavor"? (Whatever the hell that means.) I don't see Java as a cause. I just used Java as an example to illustrate how tiny and insignificant Ruby's market share is.

And if you read through everything I've ever posted on this subject, you'll see that I've never said anything even slightly derogatory about the technical merits Ruby or RoR. I just want to make one irrefutable point, repeatedly, until it catches on:

Ruby is a niche language.

Ruby, and Ruby-On-Rails, are not as widely used as the hype would suggest. Not even close.

And there are not "360 Rails jobs" on Dice.com right now. Even though 360 is an extremely tiny number in relation to the size of the US IT jobs market, those are only jobs that *mention* rails. For a lot of those listings, Rails is a "plus" but not a requirement.

In the past, Ruby cultists have suggested it's a character flaw for one to consider the potential marketability of skills in a language, when deciding whether or not one should invest time and effort in learning that language. I happen to disagree. So my advice to anyone reading is this:

Don't learn Ruby or Ruby-On-Rails if you are trying to develop marketable programming skills. The current demand for those skills (at least in the US) is so small it's practically negligible.

User 208909 avatar

petercooper replied ago:

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It is worth noting that a significant number of Ruby (and Rails) developers are independent, self employed people, which is not true of Java. That there are few jobs for the supposed size of the Ruby ecosystem is not really a surprise, as Ruby developers are typically more independent business-wise, whereas Java developers tend to be employees. Therefore, using the number of jobs as a benchmark makes no sense.

I doubt you're going to find many jobs looking for TeX or Mathematica experience either, but they're both widely used technologies.

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